Episode 53: Guiding Growth with Coaching and Mentorship
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Hello and welcome to The Thoughtful Realtor podcast. I'm Connie Chung.
I'm Cliff Tsang.
And I'm Kenny Gong. And we are the founders and partners of Willowmar Real Estate.
And this is a real estate podcast where we get personal.
Every episode, we sit down for insights, stories, and conversations about things in the market today, running a real estate team in Northern and Southern California, and finding our way as leaders and business partners.
And today we are talking about something that can make or break someone's career: mentorship and coaching. I know for me, my mentors and coaches have been a really, really big influence that has helped me find direction. And in this episode, Connie, Cliff, and I are going to explore how we ourselves–in this stage of our lives and our careers–now have the opportunity to be mentors and coaches ourselves and what that means for us.
So, shall we jump right in? Maybe we can go around and: how would each of us describe our own mentorship and or coaching styles. And if you can give a little bit of an example or of a situation that best illustrates that, that would also be good. So, who wants to start us off?
I'll go first. Sure. I would say my mentoring and coaching style is very nurturing. And I think this is probably how I'm like just in general in a lot of ways, where, I think the mom–the mommy comfort–and just very uplifting and positive side comes out. And I think I'm naturally–I'm just a very positive, optimistic person.
So, I always like to check in on people and help them focus on the positives of where their strengths are and see the highlights and remember the good things. Because in mentorship, there's always going to be the hard things that someone is going through. Because they're going through it–often for the first time–so when you can balance that and stay positive and encouraging and supportive, I think that is my approach.
I also–I like to focus on making sure it's holistic. So, while a lot of it is working in the semantics and the mechanics of learning the day to day of our job as realtors, it's also seeing the personal side. And I always like to say, “Okay, are you getting enough rest? Are you calendaring in your personal time? Are you making sure to put away your phone during the personal time that you want to be present?”
Those kinds of things. So, let's say that's how I like to go about it. What about you, Cliff?
Was there an example or a situation?
Yeah, I think going back to when we're chatting, going through a teammate's calendar, and seeing all the things that they've scheduled workwise, bringing up: what are they doing personally to make sure they are also being present and planning for time for the ones they love? And knowing that's just as important to them as work is, so asking them about their personal time and also their resting time.
Hmm. Very nice. Cliff?
For me, the word that comes to mind is “strategic,” or at least, I try to be strategic with mentorship and coaching because I think–I'm mid-30s now. I feel like there's different buckets of people that I'm hoping to mentor or coach, and I think there isn't a one size fits all box for each person. It really kind of depends on where they are in their career and in life. So, that's what I mean by “strategic” because I think some people might need a tougher conversation and some people, as Connie mentioned, need more nurturing.
I'm not as good on the nurturing side, but I think just having some thoughtfulness around that–the example that comes to mind is, I mentioned a few times, I'm part of this men's group called GoBundance. We're also put into these pods, so there's four or five of us, including myself, in the group, and varying ages, varying life situations.
Although four of us are kind of in the same spot, and we have one guy that's younger. And, I think, that illustrates the different mentorship coaching. So, with four of the guys, I think I talk more as peers and advise on a peer level.
And it's nice having the younger guy in our pod, just because I can switch gears. I see him, he's in his late twenties, so he's talking about dating life. He's also a real estate agent in Austin getting his business started; he's talking about building a team. A lot of those things that I think are just a different, previous life stage that I was in and able to give him some advice on those things.
So you were saying that nurturing doesn't come as easily, but a little bit more of the tough love.
I am a tough love–I had a very tiger mom, so …
And how has that tough love mentality come up? In GoBundance, is there a scenario that has come up for how you've demonstrated tough love in your mentorship and coaching in that GoBundance pod?
I think for me, the insight with that has been actually to try to stray a little bit away from tough love because I thought–tough love for me, it worked well growing up. And so I've just naturally thought, “Oh, that would probably work well for others.” But seeing how those other peers in my pod talked to me, not in a tough-love way, but more of a balanced, nurturing way, but are also very hard-charging Type-A guys makes me realize there's another way to–a better way to communicate to people.
So that's been helpful for me to see. Yeah, because I would assume that they would tough love back to me, but they don't.
So, finding that balance between adding in some nurturing and increasing some of that nurturing element of your mentorship and coaching style.
Yeah. What about you, Kenny?
I–similar to Connie, I really try, I strive to approach mentorship and coaching from both a business and a personal way and really try to think about: what connections can I make? Or what connections can I help the mentee make, between what's going on in their personal lives and what's going on in their professional lives?
Because I think that, especially in real estate, it's so intertwined, and as I've said, oftentimes, this industry really, really shows you your reflection, it just reflects back to you everything that's going on in your life.
And so, because of that, I know how much someone's personal experience–whether that's whatever's going on internally–really, really shows up externally and how they show up for their clients, and how they show up as a team member. And so, I think that's kind of the root of what my mentorship and coaching style looks like.
And then, I probably err on the side more of nurturing. My mentorship and coaching has certainly evolved over the years, especially because now mentorship and coaching is such a big part of my daily life. So, it's evolved a lot, and I think I've gotten to also now bring in more pragmatism into that–really, really thinking about “How can I bring a little bit more structure into what that coaching and mentorship looks like?” has also been something I've leaned a little bit more into. And providing that structure in a way that is still nurturing, but allows people to see their goals with a little bit more structure.
And I think that that has been really helpful for me, because a lot of times when I first started mentoring, it was more loosey goosey and go with the flow. And now, there's still that, but I think there's much more, there's many more spreadsheets as part of my mentorship and coaching.
Kenny, what kind of people do you draw as a coach or mentor?
Oh. That is really interesting. Well, if I think about the people that I coach now, they do range from the analytical to the free-spirited. So, I think I actually really, really like being able to adapt–kind of a little bit what Cliff was talking about–adapt my style to the personality of the person that I'm coaching or mentoring. But also still … yeah, I think that, by bringing in all sides, bringing in my own structure and my own free-spiritedness, I can modulate based on whoever I'm coaching or mentoring in. So I think it's all kinds of different people.
Yeah, this question reminds me, Brody, my coach, has shared with me a cool lesson, which was the seven different forms of leadership. I might be getting it wrong, but there's the apprenticeship model. There's the shadowing. There is the raw leadership. And I think there's just different forms of leadership that's effective with different types of people.
Some folks would much rather just copy what their leader is doing and then that's how they get good at it and build the confidence. Some other people are the task-based ones. You give them a little chunk to do, and then you review their homework, and then you give them an A. And then, they move on to doing sections one and two. And some people just follow the rah-rah. They will just commit to that leader.
And, I think a good leader doesn't just have one way to mentor or coach because the goal is to get your–I think this question, what it's getting to is: how do you get your mentee to the finish line? How do you get them to success? I think that's the hallmark, the trademark of a good mentor.
Are there of those seven–I don't know if they’re styles, I don't know what their modalities, orientations of that leadership–are there ones that you thrive in and are there ones that you need to grow in?
I think I do well with–I don't know what it's called–the piecemeal, giving a little bit of homework, checking on it. And also, I like the modeling: “This is what I expect from you, I'll do it, and then you mimic.”
The one that I'm personally working on is being more of a vocal leader, more of the rah-rah, you know, it might be like giving a speech at dinner or giving a speech at Side By Side, or something like that, where that's another form of leadership that you can draw people to. And I just have mental blockers around that that I'm working through.
Do you want to share some of those mental blockers?
I was going to say the same!
Yeah, some of those mental blockers is: I am not a leader in that form. That is not my type of leadership.
Wow, that's so fascinating that you see that because from–as your colleague, I totally see you as someone like that. Every time you give a speech in front of our team or a larger gathering, I'm always very in awe because you have this charisma and this energy around you. And you're very articulate and eloquent and inspiring, which–
Thank you. I need to hear those words more. I then have another mental blocker where I'm like, “She's just saying that.”
No!
There's layers, you know, there's layers to why people have blockers, so …
Yeah.
There's a reason why you were a state finalist, or did you even win in speech?
But you know, this brings up something that I find really interesting about being a coach and a mentor, and I was mentioning earlier before that this industry really is a reflection, is a mirror to everything that we're experiencing in our personal and professional lives.
And, we really face everything: all the insecurities, all the strengths, everything! We're really faced with it in this industry. But I think also in particular, as a coach and a mentor, that is also what we do, right? That's a huge part of what we do is reflect back what we're observing, not from a place of pumping someone's ego up unnecessarily, but just reflecting back on what we're seeing as an outsider.
And, I think that's the power of a coach and a mentor: for someone who's outside of your head to just reflect back what is actually happening in reality. And I find that that has been one of the best parts of what I've really appreciated about being coached and mentored: to be able to see things that I didn't see or to be able to hear things that I didn't see in myself, for better, for worse.
And then, now to turn it around and for the people that we coach and mentor to say, “Have you thought about this based on what I'm experiencing from you?” Right? Like, what I'm seeing from you because it may or may not align with what you're actually experiencing for yourself.
Ooh, that is such a good topic for us to talk about. Yeah, I think what you're talking about is: there's a concept of the Johari Window. It's like blind spots: the definition of a blind spot is something that is there but you are not aware of.
Everyone has blind spots, and the thing is that you can't know them because they're your blind spot. So that's why I think that's where a coach can be so, so powerful is not only are they someone that you trust, but hopefully they are helping you see the blind spot. And usually, the blind spot to someone who knows you well is pretty apparent what it is, but that person in the driver's seat doesn't have the awareness of the blind spot. And then, that coach can help redirect and help you want to maybe work on that blind spot, as well.
Yeah, what I also think is really interesting about coaching and mentorship is that, it's not up-down. Right? There's something really special about it. That's not necessarily an authority figure and like an inferior-superior. It's flat.
Coaching and mentorship can come from your peers, and it could come from someone that I'm managing professionally can also coach and mentor me. Or someone who has a ton more experience in one area than me, I'm still able to coach and mentor them, and I think that's the power of coaching and mentorship to what you're talking about, Cliff, which is like being able to just see and notice what someone may not be able to see and notice for themselves and articulate and help someone through that or help them see it.
And that's the real power in what the coaching and the mentorship relationship is. And of course, because we're all professionals, we're all adults here, right? We all come with lots of experience and lots of wisdom and lots of insight. So, that wisdom and that experience and insight can be really shared amongst the entire team, which I've seen certainly for our team–mentorship happening across the board. Regardless of how much experience someone has in real estate, they still have life experience that they can bring to share some insights.
Yeah. Oh, and maybe it might be helpful for our listeners because we might even have differing views and definitions of a coach and a mentor. Or are we lumping them as the same thing? How would you distinguish a coach from a mentor?
Oh, yeah. Hmm.
I feel like a mentor is a more casual relationship, and a coach is a more formal relationship. I feel like a coach is a paid relationship too, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Because I have found that the financial commitment actually makes you take that relationship and discussion much more seriously.
I just think about, like Brody and Liz, if they were pro bono and free, I wouldn't show up the same way as having to pay big bucks to chat with them each time.
And then that's different–then what does that casual relationship of a mentor-mentee look like for you?
I think it's not as structured. No, maybe … I take that back. I don't know. Maybe you can meet with a mentor on a regular basis, but at least for me, my mentors are more, you know, I see … like, my dad as a mentor. I don't have a set time that I talk to him. Yeah, so it's just a little bit more unstructured in my world.
Yeah, I see some similarities in my thinking. I see a coach as helping with a very specific thing, and so it's a lot of task-oriented mechanics that are fine-tuned. Whereas a mentor, I see a bigger umbrella of long-term, perhaps more so than coaching. It might be more short-term in terms of working on something specifically.
Kenny, what are some ways that, maybe recently, or maybe not so recently, mentors or coaches have helped you all find your way?
I'll go first. I think for me, it's just getting out of my own head. It's mentioning what you talked about earlier about blind spots or awareness. Just doing things that might seem silly, but I understand the intent behind it. For example, one thing that Brody had me do early on was: I used to get frustrated, “Oh, I didn't park in the right spot. I didn't optimize the parking spot. I could have gotten that one right next to the exit, and I now have to circle back to the back.”
And I'm like, “Oh, that was a mess up on my part” or something. And he had me just track just all the decisions that I made in a week and then look back in a week and be like, “Did any of those matter?”
And almost all, I can't even remember one of them that did. Like, I went for the chicken sandwich versus the burger, all those things where I'd be like, “Oh, did I do the right one?” And then in hindsight, it has no impact on you, so don't even stress about it. So, that's helped me make my decisions a lot quicker because I used to be afraid of making the wrong decision. That's how I grew up. Don't make a mistake. You get hit.
I recently started seeing a business/life coach, although more focused on business. And, yeah, as we've shared many times, the business of real estate is so personal that it just infiltrates your life in so many ways. So it's very inclusive of both. And mine, I think, has brought up some blind spots or things I've never considered.
For example, my coach Linda would ask what have I done to schedule in rest? Which I'm like, “Oh, I didn't even think of such a thing.” Or she'll help me reflect on some of the things I'm doing because I'm so task-oriented or always planning out what I need to get done.
Working with her has really helped me take a bird's-eye view in terms of examining and reflecting upon and evaluating; because I think so much of our business is forward-thinking and planning for the future and making sure we do what we need to get done that that's been really helpful.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think one of the biggest ways that my coaches have helped me find my way is similar to–I think maybe there's a through line with both the things that you all shared, which is about tracking and just being aware of how we spend our days and our time, right? And not just that, but tracking progress over time; that's been a huge, huge, huge benefit of having a coach who I've worked with for a long time–my coach is able to help me reflect on what has actually happened.
So, whether that is in a day or whether that's over the course of multiple years, it's just being able to track all of those things and then use that history and use those lessons from the past to move forward. And that feels like the essence of what not only have I gotten out of my coaching relationships–but I think also just out of the essence of coaching in general–is having someone to help you see what is actually happening in life. And turn those into insights to how to be better.
And I think that's the thing is so much of our days are spent–not clueless, but just not aware of what's happening–and so to be able to say, “Okay, what's the decision that you made?”
Every single one of those decisions, the chicken sandwich or the pizza, you know, did that matter? Right? And just being able to be like, “Oh, you spent a lot of time thinking about that decision. And was it helpful? Was it impactful? Are there other decisions that you could have made or whatever it is, how did you spend your time?”
That's what I spend a lot of my time coaching now on: “How do you spend your time?” Right? “Are you doing the things that are going to move you to where you want to go? And if you're not, that's totally fine. Let's reflect back on: how do we create a system or how do we create processes that allow you to do what you want to do, that you set out to do?”
And I think that that has been the through line that I'm also experiencing, not just in the power that we've experienced in our coaching relationships, but I think in the power that we help our folks that we're coaching, too.
Yeah, and the folks that we help coach love to hear what kind of approaches you both take in various scenarios, like when your mentee makes a mistake, or when they're facing a tough decision, or going through a big life career change, or big decision that they have to make. Kenny, you want to?
Oh no, I was going to say, I feel like Cliff’s strategic approach–I'm very curious to know, how would you strategically think about this?
Well, I think it really comes down to the person and who they are. Even with, for example, of them making a mistake, I think it's hard in a vacuum to know how to coach that situation. Like, is this a habitual thing and we're seeing this is the 10th same mistake? Then I think that's a very different type of coaching scenario than if it's the first time.
And also, if there are other life circumstances happening surrounding that. So yeah, it's not an easy decision. I think, maybe let's talk if it's the 10th time because I think that's the harder one to coach on. Ideally this isn't something that I'm still working on, but I'm actively trying to get better at, which is self-actualization: questions around how to improve that are a lot more effective than saying, “Hey, don't do this again next time.”
I'm just thinking off the cuff now, but a question could be, “Hey, we've seen this happen 10 times. It seems like this is a pattern. What could you have done if you could go back in time to prevent this from happening?” That's a self-actualization question for that person to be like, “Oh wait, last week I didn't upload this thing, and because of that, now I'm in the situation where I couldn't send it to the client.”
I don't know. I'm just making that up. So, I think the self-actualization there helps because I'm reminded by a friend who recently told me: “Think about even when you want to change something, how hard it is. Like, I want to lose 10 pounds. How freaking hard is that to go to the gym every day?”
So, if that person doesn't even want to go to the gym and doesn't even realize that they need to go to the gym, for example, you telling them to go to the gym is not going to help them. And that's why the self-actualization is the key for change. They say the first step of change is self-awareness or awareness around it. And I think that's related to that.
Yeah. I feel like this is reminding me that so much of good coaching is good questions, right? And it's not about necessarily always having the right answer yourself as a coach, but in helping the person arrive at the solution. And that only comes from asking thoughtful questions, incisive questions.
And, I think that's the biggest–that's how I would also approach it. The hardest thing as a coach is: how do you actually create good questions that get to the point of what's the root cause of that mistake? Because it is something that you just never know.
And someone else, the coachee, might not know either where it's coming from and so part of it is, yeah, just asking as many, thoughtful questions as possible.
Yeah, you both are really great at asking questions that help the other person get to an outcome or a thought that they may not have considered. It’s something I've learned from both of you. Whereas I feel like I'm like, “Hey, I noticed this. We’ve got to change this. No, don't do that. You’ve got to do it this way.” But they're mechanical things. It can be a very clear black-or-white type.
Totally. And that's, I think, that is the balance, right? Because especially of what, where, how we coach, there are tactical things where that was just not the right way to say it. Or that just is not the right way to do things. Yeah, and it's–
And I'm realizing too, yeah, in our line of business, real estate, where it's very … we operate in the gray a lot, so that's why the thought-provoking questions, I think, are the best training because it helps build that muscle. Because no two scenarios are going to be identical. So we're trying to train our folks to think, to ask those questions of themselves in the moment so that they're prepared, going for the next time.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, should we conclude this episode? We did quite a lot, quite a juicy amount in there.
Yeah. How about if someone is looking to get a coach, what's a tip you would share with them on how to find a coach that's right for them?
I would challenge that person to get a coach who's not like them. I think it's very natural to get a coach who is cut from the same cloth. “Hey, I think this way, so I want someone to reinforce that.” And assuming it's a good coach who's experienced, who is just good in their own lane, getting someone who thinks almost radically different from you will help you with your blind spots and I think could be very effective.
Good tip. Con?
Mine would be to get someone, similarly to hiring a realtor, someone you can really trust in sharing all of your dirty laundry, or just things you may not be so proud of. Because I think, yeah, in working with a coach, you want to be so vulnerable, and you're going to share some things that you might not even be proud of, or things you're embarrassed by.
So someone you just feel very in good hands with, where you can just be your full self and open and honest and vulnerable.
Yeah. My tip is that sometimes you have to kiss a couple frogs in order to find the right coach. And I think people can get a really good sense just from a single conversation, but dating is helpful and is a good chance to see, yeah, what drives with you. Because I think some people, like what Cliff was talking about, really resonate with someone who's completely different from them.
And you'll know it, I feel like you'll know it from the first conversation, but sometimes that might not necessarily feel right. And so trying on a different couple of coaches is always good. Yeah, like therapists. Like dating.
All the things. Well that concludes today's episode. We'd love to hear your experiences of either being mentored or coached by others, or if you've actually served as a mentor or coach yourself! You can find us at Willowmar.com or on Instagram at @thoughtful realtor and reach out to us directly. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review.
We read each and every one of your reviews and always appreciate when you share the love. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time, bye!
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